Amarjit Singh Dulat IPS retd is a former head of India’s external intelligence agency the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW). His first book “Kashmir: The Vajpayee Years” was followed by “The Spy Chronicles RAW-ISI and the Illusion of Peace”, a book he co-authored with his Pakistani counterpart, Gen. AsadDurrani. Jane’s Intelligence Digest famously commented “Well known for his social skills, Dulat preferred dialogue to clandestine maneuvers…” This comment befittingly describes Dulat’s style of functioning and operations throughout his career. His memoirs “A Life in the Shadows” has just been published and the contents have aroused considerable debate not just in the world of intelligence and spying but also in political and social circles. The following interview with Ajay Singha highlights some interesting anecdotes and brings forth certain key points from Mr. Dulat’s memoirs.
AS Dulat: It was in the lockdown during the pandemic that I first thought of writing this book. This is my story, told from the heart, in my own words. Since I have authored two books previously a lot of material was still available and my abilities to read and write are in fine fettle. In this book I commence with my family history in pre-partitioned India and our move to Delhi. My early years in school and how I met Paran in college, finally tying the knot sometime later. Then I write about the world of espionage, my early days in IB, my personal experiences relating to some known public figures. There is of course a lot on the role I have played in this entire business of Kashmir as well as our neighboring nations. So this book is not just an autobiography but vignettes arbitrarily picked from the life I have led. To paraphrase Kafka, I have followed my most intense obsessions mercilessly.
Ajay Singha: “Wilderness of Mirrors” is the title of your second chapter. Can you please elaborate on this phrase and explain its critical relevance to the world of spying and intelligence?
AS Dulat: Espionage is a treacherous game,you might decorate it with noble principles and patriotism but in reality this would only act as a shroud for villainy and skullduggery. Angleton the master of mass surveillance was seen as the father of the so called deep state in the US and yet he was fired by the CIA Director once his operations were exposed. The phrasealso aptly describes the myriad of stratagems, deceptions, artifices which the Soviet bloc used in order to confuse and split the West. In my early years I didn’t know much about counter-intelligence but ironically I spent most of my career doing just that. Nothing is above board in the world of spookdom, there are very few rules and there is nothing gentlemanly or civilized about it. This phrase in my opinion best describes what is going on out there in the world of espionage.
Ajay Singha: With regard to Kashmir a more muscular policy is now in place and is presently being played out by the central government. Yet you recommend dialogue with terrorists instead of just eliminating them.
AS Dulat: Governments of all political shades repeat ad-nauseum that they will never talk to terrorist groups. Yet they almost always end up doing just that and engage with the public faces of these outfits. I saw my task as engaging with these outfits at every level of their organization, especially when all other options stood exhausted. It is important to differentiate between intelligence officers and policemen.The State among other things is also a coercive instrument and it must from time to time exercise its option to use force. In the case of Punjab KPS Gill combined force with psychological operations and dynamic leadership to counter terrorism. In Kashmir today nobody wants Azadi, and nobody wants Pakistan either. They are currently dying in the name of Allah. Today’s muscular policy hampers the process of constructive engagement. Not engaging makes no sense as our main objective from the beginning has been to mainstream Kashmir.
Ajay Singha: You touch upon “Trust” or the lack of it, in various chapters of the book. It seems to lie at the root of your trade. What has been your experience in this regard?
AS Dulat: Trust and reciprocity are key elements of human nature and come into play if any worthwhile engagement is anticipated. Even in normal situations humans don’t trust each other very easily. In spookdom, where cold business coupled with a transactional approach is the order of the day, trust becomes even more elusive and difficult to come by. Greed, monetary gains, vulnerability are a deadly mix which co-exist in a relationship between an intelligence officer and an agent. Who is fooling whom, we often wonder! I have shared some of my own positive experiences with regard to “trust” and you can read more about it in my book.
Ajay Singha: In reference to the business of spying and intelligence gathering you have mentioned someplace that “Rascality serves its own purposes” please elaborate.
AS Dulat: We must work with rascals too instead of just labelling them as “Haraamis” and dumping them. Double agents working for Pakistan have rarely been used by India because we don’t trust them. They have great potential for intelligence gathering if handled well. Counter intelligence, moles, double agents are roles in intelligence gathering where rascals can be used best. It was a mole, a plant or a walk-in who led to the assassination of Osama bin Laden at the hands of the CIA
Ajay Singha: You have been a proponent of HUMINT (human intelligence) as opposed to TECHINT (technical intelligence) What drove you to prefer intelligence gathering and spying through individual interaction rather than depending on technology.
AS Dulat: At the end of the day human beings decide the course of action in any given situation. With all their strengths and weaknesses, it is individuals who take decisions which impact the ground reality in areas of conflict and bilateral engagement. Technology is only a means towards that end – of gathering information via surveillance and interrogation. I enjoy interacting with people and perhaps that is why I enjoyed being out in the field. Call me old fashioned but nothing beats the good old spy or agent on the ground.
AS Dulat: In parliament, home minister Amit Shah said that the erosion of article 370 was happening for such a long time that the BJP government merely completed the process. In this respect I agree, he is perhaps quite right. But I for one do not think that the abrogation of article 370 was necessary in the first place. Why deprive the Kashmiris of that one fig leaf of dignity? Today the Kashmiri mind fears a state of chaos, hence it pleads for Indo-Pakistan peace and stability. There is no longer a dream of Azaadi or to join the near defunct State of Pakistan. The real nightmare for the Kashmiris today is of being reduced to a minority in their own land. That fear hangs over the valley like a shadow. Article 370 is done and dusted. It is now time to move ahead politically and elections are the only way forward.
Ajay Singha: What has been your experience while dealing with some of our neighboring countries? You’ve had your experience with Bhutan, Bangladesh, Nepal and Pakistan of course.
AS Dulat: I have a full chapter on Nepal. In the 70s the perception that Delhi viewed the Palace or the King of Nepal as antiquated institutions had travelled to Kathmandu. We found it difficult to enter the palace for any worthwhile talks and this was a big failure on our part. Later Kathmandu became a busy station for ISI operatives resulting in the 1999 hijacking. Lack of vigilance in the late 70s came to haunt us years later. Sometimes I think Nepal is even more complicated than Kashmir. Chandrika Kumaratunga of Sri Lanka and Sheikh Hasina the PM of Bangladesh had one thing in common. They liked to meet and maintain direct links with the heads of intelligence.
AS Dulat: “Kashmiriyat” is that elusive but most integral definition of Kashmir. It is widely used during any discourse on Kashmir, signifying a socio-cultural and secular Kashmiri identity. I feel that the concept of “Kashmiriyat” is integral to the Ganga-Jamunitehzeeb. Yet neither the BJP, the separatists, the Pakistanis and even a large number of Kashmiris themselves want it. To my mind the concept is beyond a concrete definition but it does signify togetherness and a sense of unity. People say that of late things have changed in Kashmir – Mahaulbadalgayahai! For myself, I believe “Kashmiriyat” can never be over.
Ajay Singha: You have dealt with Kashmiris all your life. You seem to have a love hate relationship with the kashmiris. It seems you like them more than you dislike them ?
AS Dulat: Kashmir has been ruled at various points by the Mughals, the Afghans, the Sikhs, the Dogras and so on. Therefore there exists this exaggerated feeling of oppression among their people. History has forced the Kashmiris to adapt, to adjust themselves to the vagaries of foreign rule and domination. If you threaten him, the Kashmiri will lie down, and may even play dead. But given the first chance he will rise again. I have often observed this curious mix of aggrieved oppression and defiance in the Kashmiri. Time and again they have been betrayed. Over the years the Kashmiri has learnt to be devious, it is their key to survival. They will not trust you easily and moreover they will never trust each other either. As Brajesh Mishra often said “The only thing straight in Kashmir is the poplar tree.” Lord Curzon supposedly said “If you think you know the Afghans, you need to have your head examined.” I would say the same for Kashmiris but my love for the Kashmiris has remained unwavering. On a lighter note I often told the Kashmiris, albeit jokingly “ Tum log bahutharaami ho, but pyare ho bahut”
Ajay Singha: Rajesh Pilot was a political leader of great importance from Rajasthan. He became a good friend of yours and jokingly addressed you as “007”. Could you share some of your experiences with him?
AS Dulat: Rajesh was Rajiv’s man on the subject of Kashmir. I got to meet him around 1988 when militancy broke out in Kashmir. He never stood on ceremonies and when he wanted to meet up or get briefed on the situation he would call and tell me “007 kyakarrahe ho? Aa jao chai peeteyhain.” His friendship with Farooq deepened over the months and they became great buddies. Once he very casually asked me to join him and brief Mrs. Sonia Gandhi on some internal issues. I had to remind him that I had joined RAW and such an act may not go down too well with some. After I left the service Rajesh and I continued to be friends. Surprisingly there were never any politicians present at his birthday parties. Even at his daughter’s wedding I didn’t see any of the people I was expecting to see. I lost a dear friend when Rajesh died. Now Sachin is in active politics in Rajasthan. I wish him all the best.
Ajay Singha: You were also close to GianiZail Singh the President of India and travelled with him extensively. He was a political person till the very end, wasn’t he?
AS Dulat: He was originally Jarnail Singh but changed his name to Zail Singh when he was sent to prison for establishing a unit of the Indian National Congressaround 1938 in what was then Faridkot State. I was once asked to meet him when he was CM Punjab. After much bonhomie and lunch he enquired rather pointedly about the situation within the congress party. When I told him it was Mahinder Singh Gill who went around bad mouthing him, he was taken aback, as he considered that gentleman to be his dearest friend. “Beware of him” he would later humorously say when introducing me to others, adding “He is from the IB.” I pleaded with him to stop this style of introduction. Though he spoke only in Punabi, Gianiji was an excellent orator, he possessed great charm and candor. I accompanied him to Houston for his heart operation, a trip I have described in detail in my book.On the appointed date and hour doctors entered his room and asked him if he was “Ready” It is then that he is supposed to have replied “No I am not Reddy, I am Zail Singh” and that became an evergreen Giani joke. Rajiv never trusted Giani fully and when his Presidential term was coming to an end there were rumours that Giani might sack Rajiv before demitting office. Around that periodI went to bid him farewell. He said “I have some news for you, Home Minister Buta Singh came over, enquiring if I was going to float my own political party. I told him – So, why don’t you also join.” In that sense he never lost connect with politics, but at his core Gianijiwas an honorable man and an even more honorable Sikh.
AS Dulat: One comes to my mind instantly. When the PLO leader Yaseer Arafat came to India I noticed they didn’t have much security on board the aircraft, except that he was carrying his trademark loaded revolver on person. I asked their security supervisor“Aren’t you worried someone might hijack your leader’s airplane.”Prompt came the reply, “By whom? We are the ones who do all the hijacking!” There are some more snippets relating to Prince, now King Charles, Mrs. Thatcher and others, which you can read in my book.
Ajay Singha: We don’t come across any lady spies in your memoirs. Are there women spies too or is the field of espionage an exclusive reserve for men?
AS Dulat: As of now this is the common perception, perhaps because no women have made it to the top job in IB or RAW. But we are in 2023 and that may change in the future.
Ajay Singha: You have devoted the last chapter to Ajit Doval, India’s present National Security Advisor (NSA). Expectedly that has generated a lot of discussion in the media. Can you share some of your views and comment on the “Doval Doctrine.”
AS Dulat: I first met Ajit some thirty years ago when both of us were in the Intelligence Bureau (IB), he was three years my junior. I remember him telling me what a privilege it was to work for MK Narayanan, then our boss in IB. What struck me was the ambition that lies behind such a declaration, he was determined to go places. Ajit’s process of intelligence gathering is based on the dual process of trickery and a tough line. He was ruthless and perhaps a better spook of the both of us. He was far more detached and therefore able to take colder, calculated decisions. He was everyone’s friend and nobody’s friend at the same time. A line that is vastly difficult to sustain over a long period of time. When Ajit became NSA in 2014 it was no surprise for me. He lost no time in putting out information that would go a long way in building a legacy. It is what is called the “Doval Doctrine”. He asked what would be my advise on Kashmir. I told him my advice would always be to talk. “No” said Doval “There’s been enough talking. Now we are no longer going to talk” Kashmir is therefore now the biggest theatre where muscular power of the State is playing out. Doval wants nothing to do with talking. His focus is on toughness, on ruthlessness. Little wonder that our difference in styles of functioning and operations are often compared. AjitDoval and Prime Minister Modi are made for each other.
AS Dulat: My experience is that Intelligence is defenseless against propaganda. Its successes are seldom made public and more often than not it is known only by its failures. The lyrics from an old Eagle’s song, Welcome to the Hotel California pretty much describes the life of a spook “You can check out anytime you like; but you can never leave!”
